An Excerpt (only a portion of the workshop was recorded)

Joseph Kubera: I just want to share my thoughts on how I have prepared and performed the Solo for Piano from John Cage's Concert for Piano and Orchestra. I'll talk about the interesting graphic nature of the score, the instructions, and some of my thoughts on interpretation.

One interesting thing about this piece is the set of performance directions that comes with it. They vary from being very specific and easy to understand to being totally cryptic and difficult to figure out. Some of the musical elements can be read right from the score. Sometimes you need to spend time with measuring devices and plot things on graphs to make sense of the figures.

In fact, we all know that this piece was written with David Tudor in mind, and David Tudor was someone who loved to [deal with] the impossible, so I think Cage purposely left some of the instructions ambiguous so they would require significant input from the pianist in order to make them work.

The first statement in the instructions is: "Each page is one system for a single pianist." If you look at each page, [demonstrates from score] there's a maximum of five vertical events that can occur at once. They all overlap, and they may continue from one page to the next. For example, letter C begins here and proceeds onward.

Student: Are each of those sections played concurrently?

Kubera: It would be nice to think that it really can be read as one system; such that even if there are five concurrent events, they could all be played together. In other words, that you could line up the dots so the first one would happen, then something in the next system after that, and the next.

But it doesn't really work out that way because many of these designs are in a sort of code, and they have their own timings. So, the timings of the event on the second line of a page could be totally different from the ones on the fourth line or the first line. And if you begin with an idea that you're going to take one minute to get through one page, sooner or later, you will hit an event that happens to ask you to change the time completely, or go forwards and backwards in time, or disregard time completely. So there's really no honest way to deal with the score by just reading it through and hoping that everything will work just going from left to right.

The next part of the instructions tends to amplify that. It says, "The whole (meaning the whole piece) may be taken as a body of material presentable at any point between minimum (nothing played) and maximum (everything played), both horizontally and vertically." So there's your indication that you're not expected to really obey what's on the page from left to right. There are many choices. You may jump from one to the next. In fact, he wrote further, "A performance, within a determined length of time (to be altered by a conductor when there is one) may involve any reading; in other words, any sequence of parts or parts thereof." So he's really giving you permission to play any elements from any pages at any time. This, I think, is the way I deal with it, and the way most other pianists perform the piece, David Tudor included.

I've recently seen one of Tudor's realizations. He's gone about it in a very exacting, scientific manner. He dispensed with the printed score and made his own version in a small notebook to play from. In fact, he made two different versions: one which involved a great many different kinds of elements, and a second version-which he evidently preferred, because he played it more often-that utilized only those figures from the score where the events can be realized as a single ictus, an ictus being one attack, as opposed to a string of attacks or a legato line, etc. That's one way of dealing with the score.

As far as my own interpretation, I've taken many cues from the original score pages. I've observed that there's great diversity in the way Cage laid them out. Some pages have a lot of elements going on; sometimes there's little there. There are even two or three pages that are totally blank. I entertain the idea that perhaps there's something about all that open space that needs to be respected, as well as the musically dense pages. So I tend to play a version that takes its reading partly from the printed score pages, and partly from my prepared handwritten realizations of the events on other specific score pages. So a performance is a mix of things that I've written out, and things that I realize on the spot from the original pages. [Passes out score pages]

So I choose the pages I want to play. There are pages that I haven't chosen to make realizations of. Those I use are toward the front of the book. I do make a different page order each time I play them.

Student: I'm still a little confused as to how you should play through the geography of the page. When you said that each page represents a single system….

Kubera: You could do that, but then Cage contradicts himself and says you can use all parts in any order whatsoever. So I don't know what to say about that, except that I have no conflicts.

Student: Isn't it tied to the fact that he's just looking for the performer to get into the correct psychology, either his own or a departure from it? Because, as you say, he wrote this with David Tudor in mind, and David Tudor can do no wrong. In his performance of Variations II, you could see a huge departure from the instructions that Cage wrote. So, I think he knew that, no matter what, he was going to get a correct performance. I think that speaks to the contradictions in the instructions-that you can't set up or describe a frame of mind or a method of approach in traditional terms, like the language we normally associate with instructions for a score-it's a little too complicated.

Kubera: I myself take the instructions quite seriously and work them out.

Student: Right. But if there are instructions that contradict each other, that leads you to strange things.

Kubera: Yes, and Cage says here, and in instructions for many other pieces, that where there's something you can't figure out, the solution is up to the performer's discretion.

Student: "Each page is a single system" seems to me to be an invitation to create a single system in spite of all the material presented on each page. And one could imagine various ways of doing that, depending on what's presented on the written page. But that would be the solution, it seems to me, for an interpretation.

Student: He uses very specifically the word "system." And we can assume that means a system in the same sense of a group of staves in a score. But to bring together whatever elements are presented on the page in whatever way the performer can, conceptually, is that reasonable?

Kubera: Yes.

Student: On one of these pages just now, for example-in what way can these be played together? In what ways do they refer to one another, or may be imagined to refer to one another?

Kubera: Well, this figure [referring to score] is obviously all to itself. But when you get into this kind of figure, if you wanted to read this bottom staff area, you'd probably find where this intersects and play that on there. If you want to be literal about it, there are some places like that in my own pages of written realizations, where you're caught between elements to create a horizontal effect that takes into account some of the things that are going on in the system.

Student: So as a general rule, you have tried to make a horizontal interpretation of the body of each page?

Kubera: Yes. I did work some of them out. I tried to do that.

Student: Because I imagine he wants to confound that sense of directionality in the visual aspects of the score.

Kubera: Right. Well, also, I think it's important to respect the less dense areas of the score; I tend to leave a lot of space.

Student: So there is no page that you read, for example, from right to left?

Kubera: No. The elements can appear in any order, but that seems contrived.

Student: Would you, for instance, put together parts of adjacent elements, or are the elements always complete?

Kubera: You can make selections from one to the next.

Student: Could you perhaps give us an example of one page and talk about how you prepared a realization?

Kubera: Sure. Some of these things I worked out years ago, and I have to remember how these realizations came about, the interpretations.

Student: Why the private score? If it is the intention of the composer not to restrict or fix the score, why then should the pianist make private scores? That means that either the composer's idea can't be worked out, that the pianist cannot perform the piece as is, or there is a lack of clarity in the score. Something's wrong-either with the composer or the pianist.

Kubera: Well, I think this was quite intentional. I think Cage didn't want to direct the performer to do something so specific. He wanted the performer to bring a lot of his or her own elements, intuition, into the realization, so that Cage wouldn't be in control of everything. The entire score would be everyone's own version.

Student: Isn't the decision for a private score because it's so complex that you couldn't remember your realizations if you didn't make one? So, in making a private score, you're making a creative interaction with this piece. You can't do it in live performance because it's too complicated.

Kubera: You can do some of it in live performance, but there are many things that you can't do from just looking at the score.

Student: Could you choose to only use, say, only two pages for the whole performance?

Kubera: I think you could find some pages that would work that way.

Student: Because of the liberty of the entire thing, I'm curious to know what would be a truly bad performance?

Kubera: If you hear someone playing long Romantic melodies, for example, you'd know. [Laughter] Or if it's a performance that's nonstop, with little or no silence in it, that would be an indication that it's incorrect.

Student: But if it were boring, that wouldn't necessarily mean it was incorrect.

Kubera: One interesting thing is that many of these types of notation have ambiguous clefs-you can read them in treble or bass. Sometimes when you work them out, they sound quite modal or consonant. You don't expect that, but the ambiguity gives that to you. You can't edit it out.

Student: Could you give us an example of your own realization of these pages, so that we can make a distinction between what's on the page and how you have worked it out?

Kubera: I was actually going to play for you anyway, but I'll try to find something that specifically addresses that. Here's page 9. It begins with the figure G and proceeds to B, here, and at some point there's a break and an indication to go up to K and back. I don't play everything. [Each letter refers to a specific type of notation used for a musical event.]

Kubera: This is the entire course of B, but between these two points, I depart and play K.

Student: Would you say that all the notes in B are in your own realization?

Kubera: I believe I used them all. There are so many ways to read those chords. This is the same notation Cage used in a piece called Winter Music. Each is a single ictus, a single block chord or cluster. The chord is usually ambiguous, but it's something the performer can figure out. I made my realization, but there are many others possible from the same notes.

Student: Are all of these are within the compass of your two hands?

Kubera: Not always, but when they aren't, the instructions are to take the unplayable notes in advance as harmonics, with the sostenuto pedal, and then play the ones you can play. You can also use this technique in chords where it's not required.

You can never really play them at sight. It's too difficult. You have to make your own version. If they were spaced out like this-one chord here, one chord here-and weren't too dense, you might be able to play them at sight, but usually there's too much going on.

[Plays one-minute segment] [Applause]

Kubera: That's one way. Anyone else could figure out another way of getting through that, making their own choices.

Student: Do you always have one realization of each page, or have you made different realizations of the same page?

Kubera:: No, I've only made one realization of each page.

Student: Would you consider making other realizations or not?

Kubera:: I'm kind of between positions now. I like having the specific things to practice, but there are some kinds of things like this figure, letter M, with the sinuous line connecting notes. There are multiple ways to play that, too, but I get a visual feeling of fluidity from this that I don't get if I write specific notes on the page. This is not so difficult that I can't really play it from the original score, if I work at it. It feels more spontaneous; the whole figure is more suggestive of doing it as it's written, and taking different paths through these lines that intersect. I like to get cues from the ways these are written [in the original score]. If you solidify them, sometimes a little something is lost for me.

Student: So you don't play it from memory, then?

Kubera: No.

Student: What about the duration of the pages? Can you play them at any speed that works?

Kubera: That's dictated by the speed each element seems to demand. Sometimes it's limited by how fast I can play it or how much of the figure I want to play.

Student: Do you agree with the conductor beforehand how much you're going to play?

Student: We agree on the total duration. For example, it's usually something like 25 minutes. I will keep the stopwatch going, so I will know when the conductor is about ready to finish. I may finish all the material I wanted to play, or I may not. Usually I don't finish everything I could play.

Kubera: Could you finish before the orchestra? Maybe five minutes?

Kubera: Yes, you could, but I think the way that Cage has talked about making an agreed-upon performance time, it sounds like if you agree to 25 or 30 minutes, you should play for 25 or 30 minutes. Petr doesn't agree with me. [Laughter]

Student: It's clear that there's a huge degree of independence between the solo and the orchestral parts, but can you talk about any other connections that might be there?

Kubera: The orchestra parts are written quite differently. I haven't studied the notation for their parts, but it's similar in some ways, in that there's latitude in how fast you read through the systems, and the kinds of effects that might be up to the player.

Student: So, what would make that orchestral environment particularly appropriate for this solo part? How do we know that these two things belong in the same concert hall at the same time?

Kubera: Well, even though the notation isn't the same-obviously, a string player or brass player would not have the option of figuring out all these instructions for just one performance. The notes are much more definite. But each performance always has surprises. I never know what sound or what instrument is going to pop out. To get in front of an orchestra and do this is just wonderful.

The instrumentalists have to go page by page. They can't change page order, but you could check with Petr on that.

Student: And yet it still sounds different every time?

Kubera: Oh, yes. You don't have to have all the instruments in a performance, for one thing. You can play any of the parts. In fact, these orchestral parts are also called solos, and they can be played as solos, just as the piano part can be played as a solo.

Student: But how do they work with a conductor?

Kubera: The conductor uses hand signals [demonstrates hand motions] to indicate clock time, which he speeds up and slows down as he proceeds. It's really just for the orchestra. They have to follow precisely his indications of how fast or slow to get through their page.

Student: So you don't pay any attention?

Kubera: I only have to know when the conductor's beginning, and when he's about to finish. Between those times, it's like two separate things going on.

Student: How do you know when the conductor is going to finish?

Kubera: [Demonstrates with hand movements.] In the last half-minute, the conductor raises both arms instead of just one. That's the visual signal. You have 30 seconds. [Laughs] Hopefully you'll be looking at the conductor.

Student: Do you prepare the piano at all?

Kubera: I don't prepare it, but sometimes you use sounds that are external to the keyboard. String mutes, pizzicato, interior sounds, and sounds made on the instrument's case. They're all called for, depending on which of the elements you've decided to use.

Student: Would you consider it an incorrect realization if the performer were seeking dramatic effect, or appeared to be?

Kubera: I'm inclined to say yes, but the music could be interpreted more dramatically. I think the pianist's personality enters into it. I don't consider myself as flashy a performer as some people. I like to really let the work's sounds emerge, and I think leaving open space around them is a good idea. But I think it allows for a very dense interpretation, too. I'm trying to remember if I've heard a bad performance, but there just aren't that many performances at all.

Student: In going through the material, do you think that the palette you choose from in a given performance might be limited because of your preferences, since we're all drawn to our own natural pacing? Would it ever be worthwhile to write out a rhythm that might be counterintuitive to you, and take advantage of that? Would notating and practicing something open up an area that you don't gravitate towards naturally?

Kubera: Yes, it happens sometimes when I write something down. I don't tend to write out many different interpretations of a figure. But usually, there's more than one way to write it out, more than one interpretation. [Consults score]

Student: So in your own realization, do you ever notate actual rhythms?

Kubera: They are approximate. I usually use proportional, or spatial notation.

Student: Could you say which pages you're going to play, perhaps?

Kubera: I can tell you, but sometimes when [reading] these combination pages, you won't be able to follow them because something will be part of page 44, followed by something from 56, and so on.

Student: How do you decide which sounds to use when you use external sounds?

Kubera: The score usually tells you. Some elements have areas marked "I" for piano interior, "O" for outside the piano but on the case, and "A" for auxiliary. There are also certain graphics like letter S, where dots between the staves indicate noises-these can be external sounds. And there are other graphics that tell you specifically what kind of materials to use in making sounds-wood, metal or plastic, for example.

I will play a number of pages from the printed score, so you could actually follow along-pages 8, 27, 20, then 55, 52, 42. Beyond that, I'll play some of the other pages as well.

[Plays eight-minute excerpt from Solo for Piano.] [Applause]

Kubera: If I were to play the same pages with the orchestra, I would probably take more time.

Student: What do you think about when you start preparing a new performance? How do you approach it?

Kubera: It's always interesting. The piece is so massive that I'm always thinking I should really take a year off and reinterpret the entire thing. [Laughter] Not that I'm tired of it, but there's so much more if it that could be used. I'd like to investigate the most difficult notations, for example.

Student: Do you think it would be rewarding at all to reinterpret the figures in a way similar to what you've done before?

Kubera: I try to make some new material for each new performance, but I use some previously prepared material. Some things are the same and a few things are different.

End of recorded portion of seminar